Love
Here is a conversation between two xavierites over what love is. This conversation took place in the form of comments to a post on my blog which requires me to explain whom I would fall in love with.
Here goes:
Here it is then...
1)Intelligence, that to me is so important that I have to begin with it. To me this obviously factors into the ability to have good conversations.
2)An open mind: I cannot Imagine loving a mind that is caught within the petty bonds of this immature society.
3)Should love art.
4)Should be able to stand conversations which carry the flavor of my blog.
5)Compassion, well obviously.
6)Innocence will be a pro.
7)Should be able to love without attachment.
8)Should be able to understand point number 7
Read it here.
Here is the conversation:
Dhun(D):I hate point 7. Isn't it too Buddhist an approach? Or is it just a guy thing? I'm a bit like Scarlett O'Hara in that regard. When I love a man, I want his body, mind and soul. Oh well!
Sagar(S):Dhun:Well may be, But I find myself in the midst of insecurity if I "want" there is no security in the wanting.
D:Hmmm...
Perhaps, but I'm quite secure in that respect if you know what I mean!
S:Dhun~ :)
D:Sorry...I can't help arguing but love without attachment just doesn't exist. It's inhuman and no fun at all! Why are you so desirous of something so unattainable? Maybe because your first love is already mathematics, and so you won't let anyone or anything interfere with that.
S:There is nothing to argue.
The 'fun' that you are talking about is an accepted way of life, something that humans have presumed they cannot get rid of. Something that cannot end, hence they have beautified it. That is why it is called human.
Now I personally dont enjoy such a state of my mind for the same reasons of insecurity, my brain needs security to function sanely and hence itlooks for it(security) in things like love attachment,family, friends, my career, my abilities,my status and the rest of it.
And in this there is complete insecurity, there is no security in clinging, to your girlfriend as yours you job you status, opinions etc.(psychologically, I mean)
Once you realize this then there is complete death of conflict (fun) and freedom.
P.S:I am not diserious of anything, I have just answered a tag! :)
Also this has become the most commented post on the blog!
D:Seriously Sagar! I fear you are a bit out of form. A man of your reasoning powers cannot expect to label love with attachment as 'clinging' and get away with it! I think now, that it is you who do not understand pt. 7. Unless you feel a certain attachment to a person, your love for him/her will be exactly the same as the love you benevolently bestow upon all mankind (if you do such a thing?). And when I say attachment, I speak here of that fear of loss of this love, not of insecurity. I don't mean that you should be defined by those you love. And finally, I DID NOT mean that it is fun because I cannot get rid of it. Now you're just being an Antigoat. I genuinely feel that it is not possible to love without attachment. I think that's all for now.
S:Dhun~"I speak here of that fear of loss of this love, not of insecurity."
This is the whole crux, The fear!
I wish to end that!
"And finally, I DID NOT mean that it is fun because I cannot get rid of it. "
Please see this dhun, this is an insight im trying to convey to you, I dont see any point in suffering the pain that is involved in the process of your "love", I know that it can end (the pain) and I can still lead a sane normal life.
D:No pain no gain. If you cannot lose something, you will not value it. If there is no attachment there is no interest and hence you cannot claim to care.
S:dhun~"No pain no gain"
There is no gain I seek.
"If there is no attachment there is no interest and hence you cannot claim to care."
This is not true, if you are terribly intrested then there is only interest, no attachment.
Let me illustrate this ;
If you look at a flower and it mesmerises your senses then the very first moment of you seeing the flower with it's full colour all the veins of the flower and the dew on its petals when there is intense observation and no thought, just observation.
I am not asking you to stop caring, Im saying that if you look at you boyfriend without the attachment with all the detail without your longing for him understand his mind his body and his soul with all the interest and complete silence (and hence no wanting) then it is loving him. Im not asking you not to help him when he is in trouble, Im asking you to help him like you would help yourself when you are being chased by a tiger, thoughtlessly, intelligently. You see there is very little thought involved here and all love.
D:True. Interest can be without attachment, but not the other way around. Besides love is not like admiring a beautiful flower from a distance. Alot of things accompany a relationship. You love your parents, and you are attached to them. That is why you do things you may not otherwise do. Nothing is without attachment. If you are looking for something that is free from attachment, then not being attached is your attachment.
D:It's like you said. A love without attachment is simply an appreciation and not a love at all. If money grew on trees it would have no value. Similarly, you would have no value of a love if you were not attached!
S:Duun~"Besides love is not like admiring a beautiful flower from a distance."
There is no distance between the flower and you if you are really looking at it, without memory, without prejudice, without desire. Only your senses.
There is no distance at all, you are the flower and the flower is you.
"If you are looking for something that is free from attachment, then not being attached is your attachment."
I am not looking for any thing
I *am* that thing. And these are the properties she should preferably have, it's okay if she dosen't.
D:Where do you guys get this stuff!?!! It's so totally over the top! I mean, what is this rot about being flowers!!! You sound like one of those insane people who write self-help books, only worse! I fear I am one of those earthy type of people who cannot fathom this spiritual bilge.
S:Dhun~ I think I have been a bit too fast, all Ive said here is not spiritual, or anything that relates to a philosophy.
Please allow me to say this again,
Attachment leads to fear (and you agree to this)
All im saying is that it is possible to love(live) without fear. If the person you love is lost upon you there is pain tremendous pain for he was the perfume of you life and there are so many things you identify with him and they all remind you of him. It is possible to live without this pain and conflict.
Is it so difficult?
S:You could go ahead and ask me how.
See this, If im afraid of loosing my beloved, then How do I react? Do I not tell myself not to be silly, or to have faith in my own love? We have tried that before have we not, and it has not helped because we still suffer from the same fear. we see the fear and react, we have been programmed to try to eliminate fear the moment we see it, programmed to give it plesant names, put up with it or accept it as a part of our lives,accept it as something that we cannot do away with.
If this is clear please comment again and only then shall we proceed with our investigations.
D:But a certain amount of healthy fear is essential or we would not know love. That is what I am saying. When you're in love, you enjoy even the pain and anxiety. And I'm not saying this because I'm resigned to my fate. I really do. It makes life worthwhile. By the way, I guess not having that fear is what makes some couples go for swinging parties. I'm sure you agree with me, that that sort of relationship makes no sense, and a certain healthy protectiveness of one's partner is an essential in any relationship.
S:not having fear does not mean going insane. So just because im not afraid, it does not mean I go for a swinging party.And going for a swinging party signifies the existence of a desire and the absence of love.
Love is not an entity, It is an action, a verb. There is nothing like "knowing love" there is only loving.
The pain and anxiety are signs of you wanting that person, not of your love.
Enjoy pain and anxiety?
Pain and anxiety are experiences, and like all experiences the mind tends to get bored of them, and then starts looking for something new.
But love is a timeless thing, it does not age with the person, its new, by nature.
D:No, swinging is not insane for those who are not attached to their partner. If they are not insecure about sharing their love, they can have no objection to swinging.
Unless you have the pain and anxiety, you will not appreciate love. Come on, if there is no misery in the world, people will always be happy, which is a contradiction. If you're always in the same state, you get bored, you said it yourself. Hence the pain helps us to appreciate our feelings, and after that, the healing is all the more pleasant.
S:Boredom is an attachment, an attachment to change, when all attachment has ceased there is no boredom.
Please see this, Im not talking about the happiness which is the opposite of sorrow.
please make sure you understand this last point.
Here goes:
Here it is then...
1)Intelligence, that to me is so important that I have to begin with it. To me this obviously factors into the ability to have good conversations.
2)An open mind: I cannot Imagine loving a mind that is caught within the petty bonds of this immature society.
3)Should love art.
4)Should be able to stand conversations which carry the flavor of my blog.
5)Compassion, well obviously.
6)Innocence will be a pro.
7)Should be able to love without attachment.
8)Should be able to understand point number 7
Read it here.
Here is the conversation:
Dhun(D):I hate point 7. Isn't it too Buddhist an approach? Or is it just a guy thing? I'm a bit like Scarlett O'Hara in that regard. When I love a man, I want his body, mind and soul. Oh well!
Sagar(S):Dhun:Well may be, But I find myself in the midst of insecurity if I "want" there is no security in the wanting.
D:Hmmm...
Perhaps, but I'm quite secure in that respect if you know what I mean!
S:Dhun~ :)
D:Sorry...I can't help arguing but love without attachment just doesn't exist. It's inhuman and no fun at all! Why are you so desirous of something so unattainable? Maybe because your first love is already mathematics, and so you won't let anyone or anything interfere with that.
S:There is nothing to argue.
The 'fun' that you are talking about is an accepted way of life, something that humans have presumed they cannot get rid of. Something that cannot end, hence they have beautified it. That is why it is called human.
Now I personally dont enjoy such a state of my mind for the same reasons of insecurity, my brain needs security to function sanely and hence itlooks for it(security) in things like love attachment,family, friends, my career, my abilities,my status and the rest of it.
And in this there is complete insecurity, there is no security in clinging, to your girlfriend as yours you job you status, opinions etc.(psychologically, I mean)
Once you realize this then there is complete death of conflict (fun) and freedom.
P.S:I am not diserious of anything, I have just answered a tag! :)
Also this has become the most commented post on the blog!
D:Seriously Sagar! I fear you are a bit out of form. A man of your reasoning powers cannot expect to label love with attachment as 'clinging' and get away with it! I think now, that it is you who do not understand pt. 7. Unless you feel a certain attachment to a person, your love for him/her will be exactly the same as the love you benevolently bestow upon all mankind (if you do such a thing?). And when I say attachment, I speak here of that fear of loss of this love, not of insecurity. I don't mean that you should be defined by those you love. And finally, I DID NOT mean that it is fun because I cannot get rid of it. Now you're just being an Antigoat. I genuinely feel that it is not possible to love without attachment. I think that's all for now.
S:Dhun~"I speak here of that fear of loss of this love, not of insecurity."
This is the whole crux, The fear!
I wish to end that!
"And finally, I DID NOT mean that it is fun because I cannot get rid of it. "
Please see this dhun, this is an insight im trying to convey to you, I dont see any point in suffering the pain that is involved in the process of your "love", I know that it can end (the pain) and I can still lead a sane normal life.
D:No pain no gain. If you cannot lose something, you will not value it. If there is no attachment there is no interest and hence you cannot claim to care.
S:dhun~"No pain no gain"
There is no gain I seek.
"If there is no attachment there is no interest and hence you cannot claim to care."
This is not true, if you are terribly intrested then there is only interest, no attachment.
Let me illustrate this ;
If you look at a flower and it mesmerises your senses then the very first moment of you seeing the flower with it's full colour all the veins of the flower and the dew on its petals when there is intense observation and no thought, just observation.
I am not asking you to stop caring, Im saying that if you look at you boyfriend without the attachment with all the detail without your longing for him understand his mind his body and his soul with all the interest and complete silence (and hence no wanting) then it is loving him. Im not asking you not to help him when he is in trouble, Im asking you to help him like you would help yourself when you are being chased by a tiger, thoughtlessly, intelligently. You see there is very little thought involved here and all love.
D:True. Interest can be without attachment, but not the other way around. Besides love is not like admiring a beautiful flower from a distance. Alot of things accompany a relationship. You love your parents, and you are attached to them. That is why you do things you may not otherwise do. Nothing is without attachment. If you are looking for something that is free from attachment, then not being attached is your attachment.
D:It's like you said. A love without attachment is simply an appreciation and not a love at all. If money grew on trees it would have no value. Similarly, you would have no value of a love if you were not attached!
S:Duun~"Besides love is not like admiring a beautiful flower from a distance."
There is no distance between the flower and you if you are really looking at it, without memory, without prejudice, without desire. Only your senses.
There is no distance at all, you are the flower and the flower is you.
"If you are looking for something that is free from attachment, then not being attached is your attachment."
I am not looking for any thing
I *am* that thing. And these are the properties she should preferably have, it's okay if she dosen't.
D:Where do you guys get this stuff!?!! It's so totally over the top! I mean, what is this rot about being flowers!!! You sound like one of those insane people who write self-help books, only worse! I fear I am one of those earthy type of people who cannot fathom this spiritual bilge.
S:Dhun~ I think I have been a bit too fast, all Ive said here is not spiritual, or anything that relates to a philosophy.
Please allow me to say this again,
Attachment leads to fear (and you agree to this)
All im saying is that it is possible to love(live) without fear. If the person you love is lost upon you there is pain tremendous pain for he was the perfume of you life and there are so many things you identify with him and they all remind you of him. It is possible to live without this pain and conflict.
Is it so difficult?
S:You could go ahead and ask me how.
See this, If im afraid of loosing my beloved, then How do I react? Do I not tell myself not to be silly, or to have faith in my own love? We have tried that before have we not, and it has not helped because we still suffer from the same fear. we see the fear and react, we have been programmed to try to eliminate fear the moment we see it, programmed to give it plesant names, put up with it or accept it as a part of our lives,accept it as something that we cannot do away with.
If this is clear please comment again and only then shall we proceed with our investigations.
D:But a certain amount of healthy fear is essential or we would not know love. That is what I am saying. When you're in love, you enjoy even the pain and anxiety. And I'm not saying this because I'm resigned to my fate. I really do. It makes life worthwhile. By the way, I guess not having that fear is what makes some couples go for swinging parties. I'm sure you agree with me, that that sort of relationship makes no sense, and a certain healthy protectiveness of one's partner is an essential in any relationship.
S:not having fear does not mean going insane. So just because im not afraid, it does not mean I go for a swinging party.And going for a swinging party signifies the existence of a desire and the absence of love.
Love is not an entity, It is an action, a verb. There is nothing like "knowing love" there is only loving.
The pain and anxiety are signs of you wanting that person, not of your love.
Enjoy pain and anxiety?
Pain and anxiety are experiences, and like all experiences the mind tends to get bored of them, and then starts looking for something new.
But love is a timeless thing, it does not age with the person, its new, by nature.
D:No, swinging is not insane for those who are not attached to their partner. If they are not insecure about sharing their love, they can have no objection to swinging.
Unless you have the pain and anxiety, you will not appreciate love. Come on, if there is no misery in the world, people will always be happy, which is a contradiction. If you're always in the same state, you get bored, you said it yourself. Hence the pain helps us to appreciate our feelings, and after that, the healing is all the more pleasant.
S:Boredom is an attachment, an attachment to change, when all attachment has ceased there is no boredom.
Please see this, Im not talking about the happiness which is the opposite of sorrow.
please make sure you understand this last point.
posted by Sagar Kolte at 3:52 AM
3 Comments:
Arjun~Yes you do pull my leg a bit too often. I saw your debate on reductionism, made you look jobless too. but I wont dissappoint you with the post thing, will put one up soon.
Sagar,you dopelet, why have you included exerpts only from yours and Dhun's texts. I(and i'm sure chingachook too) am deeply offended. No matter tho, they were probably too corny to put up anyway.(so don't put them up now)(Man, i gotta specify everything for you)
You Mathematician!
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